http://wikidelia.net/index.php?title=Surface_interview&feed=atom&action=historySurface interview - Revision history2024-03-28T13:35:19ZRevision history for this page on the wikiMediaWiki 1.32.2http://wikidelia.net/index.php?title=Surface_interview&diff=9104&oldid=prevMartinwguy: /* Transcript */2015-01-24T17:46:18Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Transcript</span></span></p>
<p><b>New page</b></p><div>This interview, conducted in December 1999, first appeared in Surface magazine in May 2000.<br />
<br />
=Transcript=<br />
<br />
<B>Delian Mode</B><br />
<br />
Delia Derbyshire's most well-known act was to spend two weeks in a converted roller rink in London's Maida Vale assembling the original (and best) Doctor Who theme (MP3) from oscillator swoops and tape splices. Less well-known is that she made an electronic backing track for a Tony Newley perv-pop song. Or that she was responsible for the music in Yoko Ono's Lions film. Pansie Cola, with much help from Sonic Boom, now reveals something approaching all... <br />
<br />
<b>Sonic Boom: What was your route into music? Did you study music at school?</b><br />
<br />
Delia Derbyshire: No, but I studied piano to performer level<br />
outside school. I went to Cambridge University to read mathematics,<br />
which was quite something for a working-class girl from Coventry,<br />
because Cambridge was at the time, and probably still is, the best<br />
place for mathematics in the country, if not the world. Tell that to<br />
the Americans! I managed to persuade the authorities to allow me to<br />
change to music, much against their judgement. After my degree I went<br />
to the careers office. I said I was interested in sound, music and<br />
acoustics, to which they recommended a career in either deaf aids or<br />
depth sounding. So I applied for a job at Decca Records. The boss was<br />
at Lords watching cricket the day I had my appointment, but his deputy<br />
told me they didn't employ women in the recording studio.<br />
<br />
<b>This is the guy who turned down The Beatles, no doubt.</b><br />
<br />
No doubt. I knew the BBC had a Research Department, and I knew that<br />
there was such a thing as the Radiophonic Workshop, that was credited<br />
with doing fantastic sounds for broadcast programs. People weren't<br />
generally allowed to work at the Workshop for more than three months at<br />
a time. They thought it would send people crazy.<br />
<br />
<b>I think it'd send me crazy.</b><br />
<br />
Well, it's a beautiful way to be crazy, I can tell you.<br />
<br />
<b>Absolutely. Would it be fair to say that you've often applied a<br />
mathematical relationship to music, or that you see the two overlapping?</b><br />
<br />
Oh, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. There's been, since the ancient Greeks, a very close link between music and mathematics.<br />
<br />
<b>Since Pythagoras, in theory.</b><br />
<br />
Well, since Pythagoras in mythology. This is a sort of discipline.<br />
People think that composers sit there with their pen over the<br />
manuscript paper, and God sends his inspiration down the top of the pen<br />
onto the paper. Well, in some cases it seems perhaps they did; perhaps<br />
Mozart. But in other cases one has to impose a discipline, and the<br />
discipline of number is an excellent discipline. The Fibonacci sequence<br />
people have been using for centuries.<br />
<br />
<b>Is this the one where architecture and music relate in their proportions?</b><br />
<br />
Nature's numbers; the number of leaves on a fern, the number of<br />
seeds on a sunflower head, and how they are arranged... this is the<br />
Fibonacci sequence, used in art and architecture and music. Although<br />
when you hear it in music, it is not recognised. Even George Gershwin<br />
used it in <i>Porgy and Bess</i>. Now who knows that?<br />
<br />
<b>I watched this thing on telly about Roman architecture, and they<br />
were saying that the proportions of the building were based on<br />
Pythagorean ratios, directly related to harmonic musical relationships.<br />
There is a magic, perhaps, to certain number relationships. Or even<br />
certain numbers themselves somehow have magic... or a strength at least.</b><br />
<br />
They're built into nature, so of course our bodies respond to those<br />
numbers, even at a subconscious level. And now everyone's working in<br />
fractals, and, for the last two decades, Chaos theory. Probabilistic<br />
random stuff. It's not totally predetermined from the start, what<br />
you're going to get. Surprise is a nice element in music.<br />
<br />
<b>That's exciting. The best thing about having these rules is when you<br />
break them and it makes something beautiful. The Doctor Who theme was<br />
one of the first pieces that you did, and it's turned out to be one of<br />
the most important themes, ever: People recognise it within a few split<br />
seconds. The sound of it is at least ten years ahead of its time. If<br />
Kraftwerk had released that in the mid '70s, it would have sounded<br />
cutting edge then, over ten years later. It's interesting to me that<br />
almost straight away after joining the Workshop you were able to do a<br />
realisation like that. It seems a big jump from studio manager to that<br />
sort of thing.</b><br />
<br />
It's in my blood, it's just my instinct. Absolutely. That's all I can say.<br />
<br />
<b>When you were a studio manager, did you ever get a chance to have access to any of the equipment and do any recording yourself?</b><br />
<br />
Well, I was an excellent studio manager. I was so brilliant at<br />
playing LPs of classical music! Some people thought I had some kind of<br />
second sight, because there was a programme called <i>Record Review</i>,<br />
and they just played tiny extracts from records. And one of the music<br />
critics would say, "Look, it's on this side of the LP. I don't know<br />
where it is, but it's where the trombones come in." And I'd just hold<br />
it up to the light and see the trombones and put the needle down<br />
exactly where it was. And they thought it was magic. So a brilliant<br />
instinct I must have had. I was appreciated the short time I was a<br />
studio manager.<br />
<br />
<b>One thing that strikes me about the Radiophonic Workshop is how well<br />
it's remembered by a lot of people. But when you actually go through<br />
and back over the stuff, it's only a minority that is really great, and<br />
the majority of it was crap, churned-out-for-TV tunes.</b><br />
<br />
Well, this was the level of what was demanded, and this was why I<br />
eventually left. I didn't want to compromise my integrity any further.<br />
I was fed up with having my stuff turned down because it was too<br />
sophisticated, and yet it was lapped up when I played it to anyone<br />
outside the BBC. The BBC was very wary, increasingly being run by<br />
committees and accountants, and they seemed to be dead scared of<br />
anything that was a bit unusual. And my passion is to make original,<br />
abstract electronic sounds and organise them in a very appealing,<br />
acceptable way, to any intelligent person. But it was set up as a<br />
service to the drama department. It was nothing to do with music, and<br />
that's it.<br />
<br />
<b>I heard a story that you made the longest [tape] loop in the Radiophonic Workshop, that went out into the corridor.</b><br />
<br />
Yes! It went out through the double doors and then through the next<br />
pair; just opposite the ladies toilet and reception. The longest<br />
corridor in London, with the longest tape loop!<br />
<br />
<b>Although it's like a really labour-intensive process, your music sounds incredibly organic.</b><br />
<br />
Oh yes, organic's good. And the feeling of it growing quite slowly,<br />
as one's putting it together. When you hear it for the first time when<br />
it's put together, it's such a delight. Yes, very labour-intensive. I<br />
used to work all night. I used to work nights a lot, and never really<br />
admit to how long I spent recording.<br />
<br />
<b>It's a good time to work. You know the phone isn't going to ring and Joe isn't going to pop in from next door for a chat.</b><br />
<br />
And you don't have to listen to the engineers' love life problems.<br />
But also at night I could use all the Workshop's equipment. But this<br />
loop I made in the middle of the day, unfortunately.<br />
<br />
<b>We believe in limited resources, don't we?</b><br />
<br />
Absolutely. I'm dead keen on limiting resources.<br />
<br />
<b>It stretches the mind more.</b><br />
<br />
To be given total freedom&#8230; I mean, we come back to Maya Angelou- "I<br />
Know Why the Caged Bird Sings." You need to have discipline in order to<br />
be truly creative. If you're just given total freedom to do anything<br />
you like... You've got to impose some discipline on either the form<br />
you're going to use or the sounds you're going to use.<br />
<br />
<b>Aphex Twin was saying that he's sold a lot of his equipment, because<br />
he'd sit there and look at it, and couldn't make up his mind.</b><br />
<br />
If you cannot discipline yourself...You'd end up... "Oh I like this, I like that, I want it all at once."<br />
<br />
<b>There's a lot of mood and organic feeling encapsulated in your<br />
sounds, which some people wouldn't immediately associate with<br />
electronic music.</b><br />
<br />
The boss man [at the BBC] had said that "it's impossible for electronic music to be beautiful... until Delia came along."<br />
<br />
<b>Talking about limited resources, I think one thing that appeals to<br />
us both about Peter Zinovieff's EMS VCS3 machine is that it's really<br />
quite a limited selection of resources, but it's got infinite<br />
possibilities of interconnection and patching.</b><br />
<br />
Peter Zinovieff was doing the most interesting things. He didn't<br />
claim to be a musician, he didn't claim to be a composer. But imagine<br />
one of these beautiful London townhouses... the drawing room on the<br />
first floor was totally crammed with telephone relay equipment, where<br />
he was working on his random sequencers.<br />
<br />
<b>Probabilistic stuff.</b><br />
<br />
And I thought, golly, this is the way things should go. And, I<br />
think, it was my belief in Peter that encouraged Victoria [Zinovieff]<br />
to really believe in him. Because he was Russian aristocracy, and the<br />
circle in which he mingled regarded him as a dilettante. That was a<br />
beautifully interesting time, everything was mechanical. This was<br />
before voltage control. So we worked together for a couple of years.<br />
<br />
<b>Yes, as Unit Delta Plus?</b><br />
<br />
Yes.<br />
<br />
<b>You set up the organisation to bring electronic music more to the fore in advertising and TV and film music?</b><br />
<br />
We wanted to bring it to the public, yes.<br />
<br />
<b>How about these 'happenings' you were involved with? I know there<br />
was an event in 1966 at the Chalk Farm Roundhouse called Rave or Rave<br />
On, and Paul McCartney was top of the bill&#8230;</b><br />
<br />
Oh yes, there were two of the Beatles there, Paul and George. It was basically a concert of pre-recorded electronic music.<br />
<br />
<b>Carnival of Light, it's called. It's apparently a legendary piece<br />
[Both laugh]. It's meant to sound dreadful. But no one's ever heard it,<br />
and for a Beatles thing, that's the big deal.</b><br />
<br />
Well, they'd played around with, er&#8230; sounds.<br />
<br />
<b>You were also involved in an event at the Watermill Theater near Newbury.</b><br />
<br />
Peter Zinovieff organized an evening of electronic music and light<br />
effects. The music was indoors, in a theatre setting, with a screen on<br />
which were projected light shows done by lecturers from Hornsey College<br />
of Art.<br />
<br />
<b>Didn't they have light boxes in the lake?</b><br />
<br />
Yes, that was outside, yes, in the mill pond.<br />
<br />
<b>That was September, '66?</b><br />
<br />
Yes, it was billed as the first concert of British electronic music. I mean, that was a bit presumptuous...<br />
<br />
<div id="Newley"></div><br />
<b>How about the piece you did, I believe that was around '66, with Anthony Newley?</b><br />
<br />
Ah&#8230; That was a bizarre, er&#8230; ditty!<br />
<br />
<b>Quite a psychedelic&#8230;</b><br />
<br />
It isn't psychedelic!<br />
<br />
<b>It's a sort of '60s humor psychedelic&#8230;</b><br />
<br />
The late Anthony Newley told his label that he wanted to do<br />
something electronic. So they got on to me. So I produced this bloopy<br />
track and he loved it so much he double-tracked his voice and he used<br />
my little tune.<br />
<br />
<b>It's one of the most surreal records of the period. It has a pervy<br />
lyric about how he can't control himself, and the sight of all the<br />
girls and their flashing pink thighs.</b><br />
<br />
The winking knees in the rain, and their mini-skirts. I'd done it<br />
as a lovely little innocent love song, because he said to me that the<br />
only songs are, "I love you, I love you" or songs saying "you've gone,<br />
you've gone."<br />
<br />
<b>This is "I can't control myself." It's called <i>Moogies Bloogis</i> or something.</b><br />
<br />
<div id="FlowerShop"></div><br />
Yes, <i>Moogies Bloogis</i>! I'd written this beautiful little<br />
innocent tune, all sensitive love and innocence, and he made it into a<br />
dirty old raincoat song. But he was really chuffed! Joan and Jackie<br />
Collins dropped him off in a limousine at my lovely little flat above a<br />
flower shop, and he said "If you can write songs like this, I'll get<br />
you out of this place"! It was only a single-track demo tape. So he<br />
rang up his record company saying "We want to move to a multi-track<br />
studio". Unfortunately the boss of the record company was on holiday,<br />
and by the time he returned Anthony Newley had gone to America with<br />
Joan Collins, so it was never released.<br />
<br />
<b>There's a visionary piece you did, <i>Ziwzeh Ziwzeh Oooh Oooh Oooh</i> ...</b><br />
<br />
Oh, I adore that!<br />
<br />
<b>What was it used for?</b><br />
<br />
This was for a television science fiction film. I did the music for<br />
the whole programme. It was probably in the mid '60s and this bit of<br />
the drama was when they had this big boss robot who starts a new<br />
religion, and he's like the high priest, and all the other robots sing<br />
this hymn to him.<br />
<br />
<b>What did the robots look like?</b><br />
<br />
Oh, I don't know. I never watched the stuff. I had a script, that's<br />
all. The actors, I got them to chant. The words they were singing were,<br />
"Praise to the master, his wisdom and his..." something&#8230; "his wisdom<br />
and his glory." I turned it backwards first, then chose the best bits<br />
that sounded good backwards and would fit into a rhythm, and then<br />
speed-changed the voices. Then I used just this one bar repeated which<br />
had [previously] been rejected from a science and health program for<br />
being too lascivious for the schoolchildren. It was like a science<br />
program... it was supposed to be about sex, but under another name. And<br />
then the producer had the nerve to turn down my music, saying it was<br />
too lascivious. It was just twangy things with electronic pick-ups, and<br />
I just used a single note and then did little glissandos on it and<br />
pitched it and treated it. But the 'Ooh-ooh-ooh' isn't me&#8230; that's<br />
wobbulator, pure wobbulator. That's a piece of test equipment that does<br />
wave sweeps.<br />
<br />
<b>Peter Zinovieff and you had been friends for a few years, and he'd<br />
been building his studio up and starting to get into computers, which<br />
was some of your early exposure to computers. Didn't you introduce<br />
[avant garde composer] Stockhausen to Peter Zinovieff at one time?</b><br />
<br />
Oh! I would collect everybody! I took Pink Floyd there in a taxi.<br />
<br />
<b>Didn't Brian Jones come and visit you one day in the Workshop as well?</b><br />
<br />
Oh yes, the late Brian Jones.<br />
<br />
<b>The late Brian Jones. I like how you say that.</b><br />
<br />
Well, everybody's dying off around me. I'm still here, in spite...<br />
<br />
<b>You're definitely not the late Delia Derbyshire.</b><br />
<br />
I cried into my washing-up when I heard he'd died.<br />
<br />
<b>You cried into your washing-up!?</b><br />
<br />
In the days when I used to do washing-up. I've perfected my<br />
minimalist living technique so it is no longer necessary. I can cry<br />
into my&#8230;<br />
<br />
<b>Garlic.</b><br />
<br />
Into my chopped garlic, yes.<br />
<br />
<b>So it seems you were quite pivotal in introducing people to [each<br />
other] around that period. Pink Floyd were one of the first bands to<br />
use electronic sounds in mainstream music. Even Mick Jagger bought a<br />
Moog. It isn't very well documented, that whole period of time. It's an<br />
interesting period&#8230; the sort of cross-fertilisation. You were around<br />
there and introducing people.</b><br />
<br />
That's right, yes. I was always very generous in telling people<br />
everything I knew. Some people made themselves into little islands.<br />
They were very secretive about their work and their techniques&#8230; but I<br />
was always very generous.<br />
<br />
<b>You worked with Yoko Ono for a while. What was that all about?</b><br />
<br />
Yes, I did a film soundtrack for Yoko Ono. While she slept on my floor.<br />
<br />
<b>That must have been 66-ish.</b><br />
<br />
No, later than that. It would be '67 or '68. It was about the same<br />
time that she met John Lennon. Because when we were having our or&#8230;<br />
oh... orgy on the carpet. We had a&#8230; golly, my goodness! So yes, she did<br />
her <i>Bottoms</i><br />
film. And we did the soundtrack for the shorter film, which was the<br />
wrapping of the lions in Trafalgar Square, which was a happening. I<br />
also did the music for Peter Hall's first feature film, <i>Work is a Four Letter Word</i>. I did the electronic part of the music&#8230; the bloopy bits when they'd taken the magic mushrooms.<br />
<br />
<b>You did the psychedelic scenario bits! What did you do after the Radiophonic Workshop?</b><br />
<br />
[laughs] I made my name in several spheres...<br />
<br />
<b>You did all sorts of jobs, none of which were music related...</b><br />
<br />
Yes, I was "the best pipeline radio operator ever": An unsolicited<br />
testimonial when British Gas was crossing the country in the mid 1970s.<br />
Then I worked and lived with one of the founding members of the first<br />
group of Chinese abstract artists, the late Li Yuan Chia.<br />
<br />
<b>So how long ago was it that I met you?</b><br />
<br />
We first met September 1998.<br />
<br />
<b>When I first started talking to you about music, it didn't seem to<br />
be something from your past. You seemed to have very strong thoughts<br />
about sound and music, and about wanting to make music again.</b><br />
<br />
I'm passionate!<br />
<br />
<b>The music I've heard you working on now has a lot of the qualities from your material of 35 years ago.</b><br />
<br />
Yeah.<br />
<br />
<b>Do you feel that you're on the same musical quest, almost?</b><br />
<br />
I just have a passion to make abstract sounds. A deep-rooted physical passion.<br />
<br />
<b>We are also planning an electronic music festival. What's our acronym, Delia? MEMA, is it?</b><br />
<br />
No, MESMA. Multi-sensory Electronic Sound, Music and Arts. That is<br />
because there is a line which people might like to draw for<br />
themselves... the difference between electronic sound and electronic<br />
music. And we want to associate it with light, and vibrations of every<br />
sort, including tactile vibrations. A tie-in between sound and light,<br />
movement, sculpture...<br />
<br />
<b>A whole day or two of experiences, for people to check out<br />
electronic sound from the past, and the present, and hopefully the<br />
future. We're considering various workshops including one where Delia<br />
would show some of the techniques involved with tape splicing...</b><br />
<br />
And a VCS3 with an elongated joystick...<br />
<br />
<b>And very simple things like a theremin. For people to be able to try<br />
a theremin... it'll be a big deal to a lot of kids. What sums it up<br />
best, apart from electronic, is interactive. We're very keen for people<br />
to be able try stuff, and experience the joy of it&#8230;</b><br />
<br />
And lie on the vibrating bed!<br />
<br />
<b>To experience sounds in as many ways as possible and experience the<br />
joy of it through various unusual sound controllers and performances by<br />
various pioneering sound sculptors...</b><br />
<br />
...and by smelling the fibre-optic flowers.<br />
<br />
Delia and Sonic will shortly be running weekend residential workshops covering modular synthesis and sound treatment using a range of equipment. The workshops will take place near Rugby, England. For more information email [villagegreenhotel.rugby@btinternet.com], telephone +44 (0)1788 813434 or fax +44 (0)1788 814714. <br />
<br />
=Sources=<br />
* [http://web.archive.org/web/20010608142238/http://www.pansiecola.com/space/delia/ ''Delian Mode'' on pansiecola.com] preserved by archive.org on 8th June 2001.<br />
* [http://delia-derbyshire.org/interview_surface.php The Surface Magazine interview] on delia-derbyshire.org<br />
<br />
[[Category:Interview]]</div>Martinwguy